The old dilation vs circumcision debate gets interesting

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=51

Divergent views having been expressed on this subject, may I attempt to sum up and clarify the position?

Dr McAuley’s letter raises the point which is the crux of the matter: Should the prepuce be removed whether phimosis is present or not? I suggest that phimosis, especially if extreme, demands circumcision for these reasons. (1) Many infants so affected cry excessively until the operation is done: thereby (2) they may develop hernia. (3) Various troubles – for example, nocturnal enuresis, “fits”, and, in later life, epithelioma of the glans and paraphimosis – are associated with phimosis. (4) In patients with phimosis suffering from gonorrhoea, complications arise, and treatment is more difficult than in the circumcised. (5) The disadvantages in the event of marriage are obvious. Although difficult of proof, there is little doubt that the prepuce, especially a long one, renders boys more likely to acquire the habit of masturbation. For this very good reason alone I think circumcision desirable, phimosis apart, If the reasons given for circumcision are sound, then stretching operations find no place.

I venture to describe the method I use, as it is not the orthodox one. It is well to wait until the infant is 2 to 3 weeks old, and feeding is well established.

Local anaesthesia is  always used, novutox or locosthetic (P.D. & Co), being injected with a fine needle at the root of the penis on the dorsum and below at the peno-scrotal junction. This makes the operation entirely painless, as I have repeatedly proved. After thorough sterilising of all the parts with spirit and biniodide solution, the end of the prepuce is seized on the dorsum on each side of the middle line with small, narrow-bladed Spencer Wells forceps. Traction on these parts puts the prepuce on the stretch. A similar forceps is then passed down under the prepuce (dorsally), and opened widely, stretching the prepuce and freeing it from the glans, right down to the neck of the latter. The blade of a pair of straight, blunt-pointed scissors is then passed under the prepuce and the latter slit down dorsally to the neck of the glans. The prepuce is then separated, if necessary, from the glans on each side, and cut away, beginning at the fraenum and ending on the dorsum. The cutting is carried round close to the neck of the glans, leaving just enough skin and mucous membrane to be stitched together. During these various manoeuvres traction is made on the forceps originally applied, so as to steady and stretch the prepuce. Often no vessels need tying – at the most, one on the dorsum and one on the fraenum. The free edges of the skin and mucous membrane are united by a few sutures of fine iodised catgut, using a small, half-circle Hagedorn needle. A narrow strip of sterile gauze is  wrapped round and tied on. The operation takes very little longer than the usual one, and the skin edge left is almost a perfect “circle”; any after-trimming of the edges is rarely necessary.

The advantages of this method are two: (1) there is no possible risk of injury to the glans; and (2) seeing exactly what one is doing, it is possible to remove the whole of the prepuce, which is the main point. results are entirely satisfactory, and in my experience shock, sepsis, haemorrhage etc are unknown. Stitches absorb or work out, and healing is complete in five to ten days.

I hope I have shown, in reply to the flagrant statements of one of your correspondents, that “circumcision” is not a “horrible mutilation”, that it “has a sanitary and therapeutic value”, and, being ordained by Providence from very early times (doubtless for good reasons), it is not a “cool assumption” on the part of  surgeons doing this operation that they “know better how little boys should be made”. And if phimosis is to be relegated to the list of imaginary diseases, why not make a clean sweep, and say that cancer, tuberculosis, and the rest do not exist?

G.W. Thomas

With regard to your correspondence on circumcision the following case may be of interest.

My son, now aged 6, was born with a long, tight foreskin. As I was against circumcision at the time, he was left uncircumcised. When he was 6 months old I noticed that he continually handled his penis. A colleague found adhesions, which he freed, and since then the foreskin has been pushed back every night at bath time and the parts thoroughly washed. There has been no recurrence of the handling on his part, except on one or two occasions when nightly washing has been omitted and there has been some slight inflammation. The boy now does the washing himself as a matter of routine, which falls into place with the cleaning of ears, teeth etc.

The points I wish to stress are: (a) it is really difficult to keep the parts clean in the uncircumcised, and (b) regular pushing back of the foreskin and washing does not always conduce to masturbation, whereas dirty, itching parts do. I hesitate to have the boy circumcised now because I think it quite likely that a psychological trauma may result from the operation at this age. I know of at least one case where a boy of 4 years, one of twins, was circumcised, in which the operation was undoubtedly a great shock, and this may have farreaching results.

With regard to what Dr H.M. Hanschell says of the preference of copulating women for the circumcised male: this may be due to the fact that the glans is less sensitive after circumcision in infancy and that therefore coitus can be prolonged. If this is the explanation it is an argument in favour of circumcision which should not be overlooked. Ejaculatio praecox with its concomitant unhappiness to both partners is common enough to call for investigation.

W.M.C.

Comment: These quotes give a very interesting perspective to a time period generally considered to be patriarchal and prudish.

Go Circumcise Your Vocal Cords, You Stupid Fucking Whore

http://www.snipeme.com/archive.php?year=2008&rant=circumcise_vocal_cords

Many avid readers of this site are probably well aware of my attitude toward women who feel like “female issues” (periods, bras, etc.) are some secret fucking taboo “in” thing that should be shared only between women and men have no place even hearing about them from a self-respecting woman unless she HAS to tell him (“I’m on my period, no we can’t fuck!”). In fact, I wrote a rant about it in 2004. It’s a subject that pisses me off to no end. Women, thinking their fucking crotch is so goddamn special that it needs to be all “hidden” and “secret”, like Idiana fucking Jones is the only man who should be trying to find out. And what’s worse is the idiot men who were taught that this is the case by their stupid fucking cunt mothers and feed right into the bullshit. Seriously, this elitist attitude about your smelly fucking hatchet wound really pisses me the fuck off, girls!

But alas, I have come to the conclusion that turnabout is fair play. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em. And other stupid euphimisms.

You see, there’s an ongoing debate raging among liberal farts in this country about male circumcision. There’s no medical reason to do it, it’s purely cosmetic, it’s unneccesarily traumatic to the infant, you shouldn’t perform such a procedure on someone who can’t consent, and blah-de-blah-de-blah. Well, truth be told, I actually agree with most of these sentiments. Yes, it’s barbaric and I’m totally on the fence about whether to have my own son “cut.”

But that’s not the issue at hand. No, the issue at hand is a very interesting trend I’ve noticed. Bring up this topic in any liberal circle of friends, message board, chat room, etc. and you will invariably get a flood of anti-circumcision propoganda. What’s the problem with this? Well, the neat little thing I’ve noticed is that 99% of this “don’t cut the penis!” talk is coming from fucking WOMEN!

So, lemme get this straight… If I were to be a royal asshole about something like “you should let your daughter shave her legs whenever she’s ready” or “You should let your daughter use tampons instead of pads” or some other shit, you’d call me a pervert, tell me it’s none of my business, don’t worry about your daughter, it’s a GIRL thing, and then tell me to fuck off. But YOU get to be a total fucking cunt about my SON’S PENIS??? Well, alrighty then…….

Watch… AS THE FUCKING TABLES TURN!

Here’s the deal: YOU get to SHUT THE FUCK UP about what I, a MAN, decide to do about my son’s PENIS, because it’s a GUY THING, you stupid bitch!

Oh noes, if I get him cut, it’ll be barbaric and blah blah blah. Hey, guess what, Suzy Homemaker? CIRCUMCISED MEN DON’T FUCKING CARE ABOUT THIS ISSUE! Guess what else? I’m a circumcised man. And y’know how much I feel like I’m missing out? That’s right, dipshit, not one little bit. I like my nice CUT cock just the way it is. In fact, I’m GLAD that my dick looks the way it does. And, hey, every other man is too, unless they just have a strange looking (or small) dick. Uncircumcised men are ALSO perfectly happy with the way their dick looks and don’t WANT to get circumcised! MEN are perfectly happy with their dicks – whatever their dicks may be – for the most part. Oddly, it seems to be YOU BITCHES who are kicking up such a fucking fuss about it!

Now, as I stated, I haven’t decided what to do about my son. Honestly, I haven’t even decided if I SHOULD decide at all! But here’s what I *am* VERY certain about. Whatever I, a man decide to do about my male child’s penis is a “male thing” and it’s none of you wimminz’ business

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Here’s the deal: YOU get to SHUT THE FUCK UP about what I, a MAN, decide to do about my son’s PENIS, because it’s a GUY THING, you stupid bitch!

Oh noes, if I get him cut, it’ll be barbaric and blah blah blah. Hey, guess what, Suzy Homemaker? CIRCUMCISED MEN DON’T FUCKING CARE ABOUT THIS ISSUE! Guess what else? I’m a circumcised man. And y’know how much I feel like I’m missing out? That’s right, dipshit, not one little bit. I like my nice CUT cock just the way it is. In fact, I’m GLAD that my dick looks the way it does. And, hey, every other man is too, unless they just have a strange looking (or small) dick. Uncircumcised men are ALSO perfectly happy with the way their dick looks and don’t WANT to get circumcised! MEN are perfectly happy with their dicks – whatever their dicks may be – for the most part. Oddly, it seems to be YOU BITCHES who are kicking up such a fucking fuss about it!

Now, as I stated, I haven’t decided what to do about my son. Honestly, I haven’t even decided if I SHOULD decide at all! But here’s what I *am* VERY certain about. Whatever I, a man decide to do about my male child’s penis is a “male thing” and it’s none of you wimminz’ business

Denmark: Marie Krarup – Politician from the patriotic philo-semitic Danish People’s Party supports genital mutilation of boys and girls

http://blog.balder.org/?p=1528

During a debate about religiously motivated genital mutilation organized by the anti Islamic Free Speech Society [Trykkefrihedsselskabet], most recently in the news because of the attempted murder of the organizations president, Lars Hedegaard, Mrs. Marie Krarup, MP for the Danish People’s Party [Dansk Folkeparti] followed in the footsteps of now former member of the Free Speech Society the Lutheran Priest Katrine Lilleoer, MP for the DPP the Lutheran Priest Jesper Langballe, and Marie Krarup’s sister, the Lutheran theologian Katrine Winkel Holm, and argued that circumcision; amputation of part of the male foreskin is a minor procedure with positive effects, and that the freedom of parents to raise their children in some religious tradition is more important than the right of the individual to bodily integrity.

But Marie Krarup went even further than the preceding line of traitors to secular Occidental and Christian ideas, and suggested opening up for some ‘mild’ circumcision of girls!

This caused an immediate reaction from Dr. Morten Frisch:

The debate about foreskin amputation, which goes under the misleading term ‘circumcision’, has gone into a new phase.

Hard pressed by almost nation wide public opposition to the legality of the practice as well as strong and almost unanimous opposition from Danish medical practitioners, panic is spreading among the ranks of the foreskin amputation ritual advocates.

New marked arguments are being launched in an attempt to prevent boys in Denmark from attaining the right to bodily and sexual integrity.

According to Dr. Morten Frisch, Marie Krarup suggested that we end this sexist imbalance by opening up for ‘a mild form’ of genital mutilation for girls, if a good and painless method can be found. Equality for the law so to speak.

Dr. Morten Frisch about the debate on february 7:

The panel was made up of Chief Rabbi Bent Lexner, columnist Leo Milgrom (Jewish), economist Torben Mark Pedersen and me. Marie Krarup spoke as a suppliant for her sister theologian Katrine Winkel Holm, who rose from her sick bed and took part in the discussion anyway, seated among the audience.

I was the first to speak and went through the anatomical, health related and sexual consequences of foreskin amputation, and pointed at the need to secure boys the right to their own bodies, the same way we have installed paragraph 245a of the Danish Penal Code to protect girls from genital mutilation.

Chief Rabbi Bent Lexner talked about the reason why Jews practice foreskin amputation when the boys are eight days old.

Leo Milgrom, a Jewish man gave us his personal story of violence, loss and being let down, something many foreskin amputated men experience, while he also used the occasion to ask Chief Rabbi Bent Lexner once more, as he did in his article in the newspaper Politiken on July 28; ‘Can you give me my foreskin back?’.

MP Marie Krarup thought that there were important health benefits to be got from foreskin amputation, that the pain during and after the procedure were limited, that assault is too strong a word, and that the family deserves to be prioritized before the individual.

Torben Mark Pedersen (member of the Free Speech Society and a member of the ultra liberal, [financially the European meaning of the wordliberal] party, Ny Alliance (New Alliance) closed the presentation round focusing on the rights of the individual and the protection of children against religiously motivated assault.

Thereby the stage had been set for a confrontation between two badly agreeing points of view: that a child’s right to bodily and sexual integrity trumps parents possible urge to cut into their bodies. Or that we for historical reasons and respect for Judaism should accept that some parents violate the UN Children’s Convention, and mutilate their boys because religion is more important for them than basic human rights.

Allowing female genital mutilation in the name of equality

During the following debate, Marie Krarup was asked why some minorities living in Denmark should be allowed to cut into their boys’ genitals, while other groups for cultural reasons just as legitimate, risk several years in jail, if they have genital mutilation performed on their girls.

Marie Krarup suggested that we do away with this sexist imbalance by opening up for a ‘mild’ form of genital mutilation for girls, if a good and painless method can be found. Equality before the law so to speak.

The fact that this Member of Parliament can get it over her lips to legitimate female sexual mutilation in order to preserve the right to mutilate boy’s penisses, is logical enough in all its horror. When one has a world view which accepts that boys should pay with pain and life long loss of sexual sensitivity, because of their parents’ religious ideas, well I guess the same fate may befall girls.

The fact that it is possible to completely spare boys and girls for this madness by banning all none medically necessary chirurgy on children’s genitals obviously hasn’t occurred to Marie Krarup as a viable possibility.

Circumcision advocacy not official position of DPP

Many members of the Danish People’s Party are probably happy that she spoke as a private person, and not on behalf of the party.

[Mr. Frisch is sure right about that one too!]

[..]

Leo Milgrom (the Jewish man) asked a question to Katrine Winkel Holm which sounded about like this: ‘Is it ok if a new religious movement would want to amputate the tip of the little finger of their kids, in order to give them a sign of their belonging to a group, when after all it is legal to remove something far more valuable from a boy’s sex organ?

Theologian Katrine Winkel Holm thought not, because that would be violence against the child. When fingertip amputation is violence, while foreskin amputation isn’t, that is because there are historical reasons to cut into boys penisses, we were made to understand.

Or in other words, when a religiously motivated assault has been going on for so long that we have repressed the notion that it is an act of violence, nobody from the outside should come and interfere.

[..]

Foreskin amputation is costly. For the defenseless boys as well as for the young and adult men they will become later on. Sexually, emotionally, identity wise and economically.

That fact that this practice in the US is a golden egg worth hundreds of millions for doctors and other ‘circumcizers’ is a delicate matter which was not brought up at the meeting.

But it is thought provoking, that American Pediatricians and Obstetricians, who perform most of the foreskin amputations on newly born American boys, are the only doctors in the world, who can find arguments in the scientific literature in favor of the foreskin amputation practice.

[..]

People in the Western world prioritize to an ever higher degree the emphasis on the rights of children and abstain from the practice.

Even in the US where prognoses say that 2014 or 2015 will be the first year since WWII in which more than half of all newly born boys will have intact sex organs when they leave the maternity ward.

Western doctors argue against the amputation practice, except those who make good money out of it. [And those who support it for tribal reasons – Balder]

Marie Krarup doesn’t think that we should protect Danish boys from genital mutilation.

But a solid majority of the Danish public wants Denmark to lead the way and stop this assault on underage boys which is illegal under the UN Convention.

The Danish Medical Society advices against medically unnecessary foreskin amputation. The Sex & Society Organization is against it, as well as the Children’s Council.

What do you say?

Morten Frisch is Chief Medical Doctor, ph.d., and professor of Sexual Health Epidemiology

Comment: White Nationalists who complain that Muslim men should have more fun when they have sex with non-Muslim women resemble Muslims who think non-Muslims should have large non-Muslim families instead of being sluts and faggots. Disingenous, transparent hypocrisy is never cool or even effective.

 

Circumcision And Gentiles

http://www.lightofmashiach.org/circumcision.html

Ellen Kavanaugh

Let’s start with *when* circumcision was given, in Genesis 17:9-14:

“And God said unto Abraham: ‘And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'”

The command is given to Abraham. Abraham is the father of the Jewish people, but this covenant is made before the Israelites have been chosen. In fact, it is given before Isaac is even born. So, circumcision isn’t given just to the Jewish people but to all of Abraham’s descendants. Abraham obeyed G-d and all the males in his household were circumcised.

A common argument is that Gentile believers don’t need to be circumcised because they come into G-d’s covenant not through Torah or Jewishness, but through Abraham. Yet we’ve just seen circumcision was the *very sign* of the covenant G-d made with Abraham before Torah was even given. So this argument doesn’t excuse Gentile believers from being circumcised.

What Does Yeshua Teach About Circumcision?

Both Yeshua (Luke 2:21) and Yochanan (Luke 1:59) were circumcised. Yeshua only discussed circumcision once, in a comparison to healing, but He did uphold both the importance and priority of circumcision in His remarks:

“I have done one work and you are all surprised at it. Moses gave you circumcision–not that it comes from Moses, but from the fathers–and even on the Sabbath you give a child circumcision. If a child is given circumcision on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?” John 7:21-23

An indirect reference to circumcision is Yeshua’s command that believers partake of the Passover each year in remembrance of Him:

“And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.” Luke 22:19
“And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.” 1 Corinthians 11:24

The indirect reference to circumcision is that in order to obey Yeshua’s command one would have to be circumcised, because Torah forbids anyone uncircumcised to partake in the Passover:

“And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the YHVH, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land; but no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. Exodus 12:48

From the TaNaKh and the gospels, there is no reason any Gentile should think circumcision isn’t for him. So let’s find where the confusion begins.

Timothy’s Circumcision In Acts

“Paul had a desire for him to go with him, and he gave him circumcision because of the Jews who were in those parts: for they all had knowledge that his father was a Greek.” Acts 16:3

Now knowing that Timothy’s father was Greek, the Jews would know that Timothy had not been circumcised as an infant, so Sha’ul had Timothy circumcised. The Christian argument is that since Timothy was Jewish (because his mother was Jewish) that Timothy’s circumcision doesn’t count. Afterall, Timothy was Jewish but Gentiles aren’t obligated to do the same. Are there two paths to G-d? Are there two sets of rules? A Jewish Way and a Non-Jewish Way? Of course not! In Galatians 3:28 Sha’ul explains “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Messiah Yeshua.” One. So either circumcision applies to all, or to none. If none, then Sha’ul should have simply explained to the people that believers didn’t have to undergo circumcision. He didn’t. When Sha’ul circumcised Timothy, he was showing that this new faith in Yeshua *also* upheld circumcision.

Sha’ul’s Teachings Regarding Circumcision

A common misconception about circumcision is that “circumcision of the heart” replaces physical circumcision. Yet the Brit Chadasha (New Testament) passage that mentions circumcision of the heart is directed *only* to the Jewish people, let’s look:

“But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Romans 2:29

Yet in the preceding verse 17 it reads: “But if you bear the name ‘Jew'” and in the preceding verse 23 it reads: “You who boast in law.” The audience here has been clearly identified as a Jewish audience. Sha’ul is really just reiterating Torah to His Jewish brethren:

“Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.” Deuteronomy 10:16″And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6

Sha’ul is *not* introducing a new concept so that Gentiles can circumcise their hearts instead of undergoing physical circumcision. He is reminding his Jewish brethren that physical circumcision *alone* is not enough.

Jeremiah repeats this need:

“Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest My fury go forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.” Jeremiah 4:4

Note, at no point in Jewish history did anyone *ever* interpret these texts to mean that circumcision of the heart replaced physical circumcision. *Both* are G-d’s commands, both circumcisions are important.

Sha’ul To The Romans

Let’s look at the Romans 2 passage:

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

The group being addressed are Jews.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

“Circumcision” here is Jewishness, those born into the covenant. A Jewish person who does not keep Torah is likened to a person outside the covenant (a Gentile).

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

A Gentile who obeys Torah is likened to a Jew. To keep the righteousness of Torah includes being circumcised since circumcision is included in Torah. So this text contradicts itself if we make ‘uncircumcision” mean anything other than a “non-Jew” or “Gentile.” Stay close to the text here, Sha’ul is debunking His fellow Jews confidence — they boast *because* they are Jewish and were given Torah. The discussion here isn’t about circumcision but Jewishness.

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Better: ‘If a Gentile by birth (nature) obeys the law, couldn’t he judge you, who are Jewish through covenant (letter), if you break the law?’ It’s a logical point — which counts more? Righteousness without covenant and birthright, or unrighteousness having covenant and birthright? Sha’ul was an early evangelist to the Gentiles, he is seeing many more Gentiles come into faith in Yeshua than Jews. He is speaking this to his brethren out of shame.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Again, Sha’ul is addressing his Jewish brethren. Yes, they have outward circumcision in accord with the covenant; they were circumcised at 8 days of age by their parents, true. But a true Jew also has circumcision of the heart, in the spirit, outside of the covenant, which isn’t performed as a ritual of identification for others to see, but for G-d alone. Sha’ul isn’t criticising physical circumcision — it is a covenantal birthright and Torah command; but there is a deeper level one should be seeking. Resting solely on birthright and the covenant will never be enough.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

I included the above verses for continuity, to show this passage was directed *only* at Sha’ul’s Jewish brethren. (A related article on Romans 2 is: “Spiritual Jews”

What we’ve seen in the above passage is one of several cases where ‘circumcision’ and ‘uncircumsion’ mentioned are interchangeable for ‘Jewish’ and ‘Gentile’ and aren’t strictly reflecting the covenental command itself. As Sha’ul explains:”Wherefore remember, that in the past you were Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.” Ephesians 2:11 “Uncircumcision” was used loosely to simply mean “Gentile.”

Romans 4

Romans 4:7-10 “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.”

Sha’ul is showing that Yeshua’s atonement and grace covers the Gentiles as well as the Jews. But how can Gentiles receive this blessing too, since Gentiles are outside the covenant that gives the blessings? Because Abraham himself received these blessings *before* he was circumcised and entered the covenant.

Romans 4:11-13 “And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

This is a marvelous picture of G-d’s larger plan. G-d selected Abraham *before* he entered the covenant and was circumcised. Gentiles are brought into the covenants of Israel in the same way. Faith precedes the covenant. Note Abraham *did* undergo circumcision, this passage does not abrogate the covenant of circumcision G-d made with Abraham. Sha’ul is showing that G-d made a provision for those who would later come into the faith, that the promise of righteousness could be bestowed on all through Abraham.

Romans 4:14-17 “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.”

These promises were made to Abraham *before* law was given so that they extend to *all* Abraham’s seed and not just Israel. Grace is from G-d and our response of faith towards His grace *precede* law. Simply put, Torah was given later through only one line of Abraham’s seed (Isaac to Jacob). Torah set boundaries for the people but it did not provide grace nor was it ever intended to. As in chapter 2, Sha’ul is debunking the confidence of his brethren who felt grace/righteousness came only through Jewishness and Torah. Torah had been misused as a system for justification and as a way of limiting the promises of Abraham so that only the line of Jacob received them. Abraham is the father of Ishmael (the Arabs), the father of the Israel/Jews, and is the father of *all* through faith.

Sha’ul To The Galatians

Galatians 2

Galatians chapter two is often misunderstood as being against circumcision.

Galatians 2:1-2 “Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.”

Sha’ul has gone to Jerusalem, to check with the Beit Din and verify the gospel he was teaching met their approval (James, Kefa, and John, the leaders in Jerusalem). Note that the early believers had accountability — no man is an island, not even Sha’ul.

Galatians 2:3-5 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Messiah Yeshua, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Now, note in verse 4 *who* was pestering Titus to be circumcised. It wasn’t James, Kefa or John, it was *false* brethren who heard Sha’ul and Titus were in town. Who were these false brethren? Two hints help us, we know they are in Jerusalem, and we know they wanted Gentiles to convert (be circumcised). It is probably the same group as in Acts 15:5, that sect of the Pharisees who believed all Gentile believers should become proselytes and undergo the conversion rituals of Pharisaic Judaism. (recommended read “Acts 15” We already know from Acts 15 that Gentiles do *not* have to become proselytes. The issue of circumcision here, as in Acts, isn’t about a Torah command of circumcision; this is about ritual circumcision; to basically convert Gentiles into Jews. Had Titus been compelled by these false brethren, it would have given them more power to push others into conversion — they could then say “Even Sha’ul agrees Gentiles must become Jews in order to be saved.” Salvation was being offered to *all* people through faith alone; it was not limited to Jews (and Gentile proselytes). Yeshua wearied at such efforts to convert Gentiles: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.” Matthew 23:15 Sha’ul refused to submit to these false brethren, he submitted himself only to G-d and the Jerusalem Beit Din.

Galatians 5

1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Messiah hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Bondage here is bondage of men — the traditions of men.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Messiah shall profit you nothing.

If you convert (become circumcised) it’s validating the teachings of the false brethren, you’d be agreeing that salvation is based on conversion and works, in which case you wouldn’t need Messiah.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Dependant on keeping “whole law” for salvation — written Torah *and* traditions — no room for error.

4 Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Incidently, there is no justification through works, it was a false belief system, it is *not* a scriptural teaching.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Yeshua Messiah neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

As I quoted earlier, ‘there is neither Jew nor Greek’ — salvation is found in faith working by love, not through Jewishness or Non-Jewishness.

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would that those troubling you would mutilate themselves.

Now Sha’ul is angry. Sha’ul has been teaching the Galatians about the gospel of Yeshua, yet in came these false brethren trying to yoke the new believers into following conversion rituals and oral law/tradition. Theirs was *not* the gospel of Yeshua that Sha’ul had originally shared with them. It should have been obvious to the Galatians that these teachers opposed Sha’ul since they persecuted Sha’ul too. If Sha’ul had also taught such conversion was necessary (as these false brethren taught), then he wouldn’t be persecuted. The Galatians should have easily recognized they were false teachers instead of Sha’ul having to reteach them. But since the Galatians didn’t recognize the false doctrine, Sha’ul reshares his testimony at the beginning of his letter to the Galatians; and reminds them that gospel he teaches is in accordance with G-d *and* the Beit Din of Jerusalem (Kefa, James & John). In other words, Sha’ul’s gospel can be trusted, the ‘gospel’ of these false brethren cannot.

Galatians 6:12-16

12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Messiah.
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

In other words, this Pharisaic group compelling these Galatians to be circumcised want to boast in their flesh, and prove to their peers that they maintained and taught Pharisaic Judaism and gained many new converts / proselytes. Yet for all this emphasis on making proselytes, they weren’t even obeying Torah themselves. If these Galatians refused to submit, then the Pharisaic believers would suffer persecution too for failing to make more proselytes.

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Yeshua Messiah, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Sha’ul points out we glory in our L-rd Yeshua, not in making proselytes.

15 For in Messiah Yeshua neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

This is better rendered, “For in Messiah Yeshua, neither Jewishness is anything nor NonJewishness, but a new creature.” Referring back to the fact that Israel’s olive tree is like a new man, comprised of believing Jews *and* Gentiles — with no need for the Gentiles to undergo any conversion ritual to be included. This is the Israel of G-d.

Some of Sha’ul’s writings had been misunderstood as being against Torah, as Kefa says:

“And be certain that the long waiting of the Lord is for salvation; even as our brother Paul has said in his letters to you, from the wisdom which was given to him; And as he said in all his letters, which had to do with these things; in which are some hard sayings, so that, like the rest of the holy Writings, they are twisted by those who are uncertain and without knowledge, to the destruction of their souls.” 2 Kefa(Peter) 3:15-16

It’s nothing new that Sha’ul’s teachings are being twisted into saying something they don’t (like the church today saying that Sha’ul teaches us not to obey the Torah). Sha’ul has been misunderstood for two millennia.

So, Did Sha’ul teach against circumcision for believers?

Let’s look at two very easy to understand texts of Sha’ul:

“But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets.” Acts 24:14″And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.” Acts 25:7,8

Sha’ul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Sha’ul himself claims to uphold Torah and teach Torah. I will accept him at his word.

Circumcision: A women’s issue?

http://www.antifeministtech.info/2013/03/baby-boys-get-circumcised-women-hardest-hit/

Mar192013

 

I hate the circumcision debate because both sides of the circumcision debate have been taken over by women.  The last time I wrote an article about circumcision, I took a look at some comments from women involved in the anti-circumcision movement, and they all had bizarre ideas like circumcised men are permenantly damaged and incapable of actual sex.  One woman couldn’t stop thinking about how her son’s penis was irrevocably damaged.  These women were making circumcision all about themselves despite not actually being the recipients of a circumcision.

Recently, I found an article in the Huffington Post from a woman against circumcision who made it all about women too:

Even though the age for circumcision ranges widely across all circumcising societies, what is most universally constant is the requirement that circumcision occur before marriage. This rule not only establishes the father’s status in the male-dominant community, but it also works to achieve another salient objective: marriageable girls are entrained to view any uncircumcised man as undesirable, thereby ensuring the ethnic stability of the tribe. Girls know from an early age that they would risk social ostracism by mating with an uncircumcised male.

On a meta-historical and biological level, circumcision acts to rename, remap, and invert our fundamental and primal relationship to the feminine. It is not coincidental that this ritual of tribal belonging necessitates the cutting, blood-letting, and altering — in a public ceremony — of the male child’s sexual organ. As Glick points out, “Female blood contaminates, male blood sanctifies.” Thus, he explains, “the shedding of male blood is an act of consecration.”  By creating historical and social linkage through this sacrificial ritual, circumcision functions to supersede and transcend our most primary maternal and biological system of relationship making patrilineal and patriarchal hierarchy appear “natural and inevitable,” as Nancy Jay notes in her brilliant book, Throughout Your Generations Forever.

Similarly, in both the Hebrew Scriptures (Samuel 1:1) and the New Testament (Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38) , by citing and repeating the lineage of male progenitors, legitimacy is established. The names of the mothers are usually unmentioned, irrelevant in a male-dominant culture.

Circumcision subverts the community’s relationship to the life-giving principle of the feminine, not only by obliterating the woman’s rightful identity in structuring the historical social network of her tribe, but also by trivializing and implicitly forbidding her to acknowledge, much less act upon, her deepest mammalian instincts to protect her newly birthed child. She knows, long before she has even conceived, that in order for her male child to be bonded to the male community — past, present and future — and to a male-imaged god, she must surrender him to the men with a knife to cut, wound and cause great pain to the very vulnerable sexual organ of this newly birthed child. Typically, a mother’s feelings are dismissed or ridiculed. Her voice is silenced, even to herself.

Can it be a coincidence that we have language for the primary disempowerment for men, but not for women? When men are wounded in their primal potency of manhood, we say they have been “emasculated.” When women are wounded in their primary potency of womanhood, we rarely notice. We have no language, no conceptual structure, no word to claim, much less attempt to heal the experience of core female disempowerment.

The wounding of circumcision irreversibly alters both mother and child: the mother is fractured at the base of her deepest womb-wisdom, which knows that she must protect her child no matter what; and the baby, shocked and traumatized, is fractured in his ability to absolutely trust the protective arms of the mother he has biologically and innately turned to as his primordial source of safety. From the beginning, masculinity is now defined as that which must be cut off from the mother and all that is female, nurturing, and essential for human survival. In this way women are made complicit in this masculine-defined model of motherhood. Nancy Jay states, “Gender is therefore unequaled as a cornerstone of domination.” Circumcision is the weapon that not only destroys a boy’s foreskin but also deftly excises maternal authority over the ultimate well-being of her child. For if a woman is forbidden to feel entitled to her instinctive need to protect her newborn child, what feelings of her own can she ever trust?

Additionally, the removal of the foreskin creates a secondary loss of sensitivity: not only has the most erogenous tissue of the male sexual organ been removed, but, as the man ages, the glans loses its mucosal covering, becomes dried out, and keratinizes over time. Typically by middle age the glans of the circumcised penis has lost much of its receptive potential and the man requires more abrasive stimulation to achieve orgasm. Often this is just as a woman is becoming peri-menopausal and experiencing decreasing vaginal lubrication. Typically, the problem is identified as the woman’s entry into menopause; the contribution of the circumcised partner is rarely acknowledged. In subtle but profound ways, circumcision functions to diminish a man’s pleasure potential, allowing his bond to his partner to be subordinated to his bond to his tribal male peers.

Circumcision achieves this by violently breaching the maternal-infant bond shortly after birth; by amputating and marking the baby’s sexual organ before he knows what he has lost; by disempowering, “taming,” the mother at the height of her instinctual need to protect her infant; by bonding the baby to the community of men past, present, and future and to a male-imaged G-d; by restructuring the family and the society in terms of male dominance; and by psycho-sexually wounding the manhood still asleep in the unsuspecting baby boy. In all of these ways — socially, politically, religiously, ethnically, sexually, tribally, and interpersonally — the cutting of our baby boys’ sexual organs is the fulcrum around which patriarchy exerts its power. Circumcision is a rite of male domination — domination and the entitlement of domination over other men, women, and children, both institutionally and personally. It is the essence of patriarchy.

These are just a few quotes from the article.  In an anti-circumcision article, terms like “womb wisdom” and sentences like, “Circumcision is a rite of male domination — domination and the entitlement of domination over other men, women, and children, both institutionally and personally. It is the essence of patriarchy” have no place.  The point of being against circumcision is what happens to baby BOYS (and older boys and men if circumcision happens later).

What has happened is that women have managed to take over the anti-circumcision movement and make it all about them.  The boys who actually get circumcised are only an afterthought at best.  The “logic” that we see here is incredibly twisted, but that is what it takes to say women are the real victims of male circumcision.

What has happened to the anti-circumcision movement is a sober warning about what could happen to the MRM if we are not careful.  The anti-circumcision movement has been taken over by women and made to be anti-male.  We can’t let that happen to the MRM.

Comment: read the comments. I personally think a circumcised male who has PIV at sixteen has more real sex than an uncircumcised male who masturbates well into his twenties. As I explained to Hyperborean, one shouldn’t seek a pretext to fight one’s enemies, but attack them on their real faults.